#700
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:59:51 -0400
From: Pamela Noah <pxnoah@DHR.STATE.GA.US>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Ah, another 'election year' and the Bush-bashing continues......can't you =
just feel the love. Hehehe.
=20
I guess Bush et al. should have ignored the Iraq/Afghanistan threats and =
pacify the dictators/Islamics. I guess confronting Hitler was a bad idea =
back too. I guess Clinton was right to ignore Kenyan Embassy bombings, USS =
Cole Bombing, 1st World Trade Center Attack, Tutsi/Hutu conflict et al.... =
=20
=20
History will have the final say about our current war(s). I hope you don't =
get your info solely from the MSM? Why is that most troops support the war =
while those safe at home do not? I know at least 2 guys serving/served and =
they say that the people support their efforts. Read a few combat troop =
blogs - what do they say? It's real easy to armchair quarterback when you =
sacrifice nothing.=20
=20
I agree that the poor Iraqi citizens do not deserve this, but was the UN =
going to back up their rhetoric and enforce their own sanctions? Who is =
really to blame for Iraqi citizen deaths? Rouge Americans, or their fellow =
Eastern brethren (PC code: Muslim)? I wish peace would work every time and =
war is hell, but what does history show us? Look at the N. Korea and Iran =
situations. Bush has backed off since Americans are so 'unhappy' with the =
war(s) and are allowing other countries to confront. What is happening =
with that? Is the UN doing anything in Dafar? Look up Bali 2002 and =
Pakistan/India conflict of the 1970s. Compare that to the so-called threat =
of American fundamentalism.
=20
People will always hate/envy the 'Haves', and those in power usually stop =
at nothing to maintain control - doesn't matter what party, tribe or =
country. However, please do not confuse the sincere and informed religious/=
everyday Americans who vote their conscience with the theocratic threat =
that Islam, et al brings to the West.=20
=20
I would advise you read 'While America Slept' by Stephen Bauer - a gay =
American journalist living in Europe. He will be the first to tell you =
that appeasement politics and ignoring viable threats for peace will never =
gain anything. No, we 'can't make them love us'. Everyone says "peace, =
peace' but is that really the norm of human condition? History says =
otherwise.
=20
I would bet $$ that we will yet again see an overall Democratic defeat, =
although they will probably gain a few seats. Repub. scandals will go =
along way in helping Democrats. But, how about the Demos. try presenting =
their platform rather than bashing? Show why Americans should vote =
Democrat? Anyone notice the Dow is at a record high, gas prices are down =
and interest rates are still at record lows??? Nah, Foleygate is much more =
important to our daily lives....=20
=20
What the 'intellegesia' don't realize is that most Americans do not want =
this country to turn into Mexico-lite or Europe-lite. This is a great =
country in and of itself. And if this makes us uninformed or 'ignorant =
and stupid' like you say we are - then so be it!
=20
Pamela Noah, MA
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#701
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:03:32 -0400
From: Michael Ludwig <Michael.J.Ludwig@HOFSTRA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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This is one the best examples I could think of as to why unfettered
free speech is a great thing! Ah, the unexamined life!
Michael J. Ludwig <Michael.J.Ludwig@hofstra.edu>
http://people.hofstra.edu/faculty/michael_J_ludwig
Hofstra University, Department of HPFS
220 Hofstra Dome, Hempstead, NY 11549
516-463-5885 (voice)
516-463-4810 (fax)
"Make the best use of what is in your power,
and take the rest as it happens." --Epictetus
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#702
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:08:30 -0400
From: Penny Bailey <penny.bailey@TRHD.DST.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Wow, I hear the anger. How did we get on this discussion? My health
related concern is what do we truly know about the "people" we claim to
serve. Do we listen to where they are at or do we barge in with our own
values and discount what is important to the "target" population? Do we
dismiss every belief and world view they have.
We rushed into Iraq perhaps prematurely, perhaps inappropriately. We did
not understand that the intense sense of hospitality a group has to friend
or foe may create a feeling that we are unconditionally welcomed initially.
When feeling disrespected resentment may occur. This leaves cracks for the
deceitful to cast doubts.
We did not understand that what many here called boyish pranks to prisoners
was more abhorrent to a population for spiritual reasons that giving up ones
life for their faith. Religious leaders who want power on both sides use
this to gain more power. Righteous indignation further isolates the
possibility for a healthy, just answer.
Now that we are there, do we really understand a population that is
desperate to appear right, superior, at any cost will become puffed up with
power to make decisions for others rather that listening to others. See,
see, God is on our side, do not question our authority again.
Perhaps we can learn something from this. Health Educators too often as
Paulo Friere says, throw out answers like stones before the questions are
ever asked.
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#703
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:17:10 -0500
From: "Kenneth R. McLeroy" <kmcleroy@SRPH.TAMHSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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While I have strong feelings about this war and this administration, I
would suggest taking this conversation off line.
-Ken McLeroy
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#704
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:37:56 -0400
From: Michael Ludwig <Michael.J.Ludwig@HOFSTRA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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With all due respect Ken, that is exactly opposite what Dan Leviton
was suggesting. Too much of the war and the administration is "off
line"
and out of sight. What would happen if conscription were re-instated
(as
Charlie Rangel has been saying for years)? I think this needs the
widest
possible airing as it has direct and long-lasting health implications
for all
involved.
Michael J. Ludwig <Michael.J.Ludwig@hofstra.edu>
http://people.hofstra.edu/faculty/michael_J_ludwig
Hofstra University, Department of HPFS
220 Hofstra Dome, Hempstead, NY 11549
516-463-5885 (voice)
516-463-4810 (fax)
"Make the best use of what is in your power,
and take the rest as it happens." --Epictetus
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#705
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:46:50 -0400
From: Pamela Noah <pxnoah@DHR.STATE.GA.US>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Correction: The correct book citation is "While Europe Slept" by former =
NYT journalist Bruce Bawer.
=20
http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0385514727
=20
http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2006/02/a_book_worth_a.php
=20
=20
Thanks,
Pamela Noah, MA
=20
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#706
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:49:48 -0500
From: "Kenneth R. McLeroy" <kmcleroy@SRPH.TAMHSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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With all due respect Michael, we are not going to resolve this over the
internet. Dan Leviton and you are certainly free to start a separate
listserve to discuss these and other issues. I may even decide to join
you. However, I think we need to be sensitive to the purpose of this
list serve and the right of others not to listen to us rant and rave.
There are certainly a wide array of topics about which we can generate
controversy. If the majority of listserve members disagree and want to
pursue this line of conversation, I will be glad to sign off.
-Ken McLeroy
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#707
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:56:17 -0400
From: Pamela Noah <pxnoah@DHR.STATE.GA.US>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Original thread posted below. Where was the 'let's take this off-line' =
request for this and subsequent post bashing several classes of Americans? =
Hmmm? I ignored the first post by Mark (usual fare), but responded after =
the second and have also been personally insulted in a third. Where are =
the complaints about that? =20
=20
Pamela Noah, MA
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#708
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:59:26 -0500
From: "Kenneth R. McLeroy" <kmcleroy@SRPH.TAMHSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Pamela:
You are simply being obnoxious and offensive. Please go away.
-Ken McLeroy
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#709
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:08:23 -0600
From: "Randolfi, Ernie" <randolfi@MSUBILLINGS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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I for one enjoy the spirited discourse and feel that it is very appropriate
to the list. As has been suggested many times in the past - If you don't
like it, use your delete key.
Ernie Randolfi
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#710
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:09:15 -0500
From: Michael Pejsach <healthedman@COX.NET>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Why do some folks choose to offer the veto of open discussion, even
if there is an angry tone? Why are we being "told" to take it "off
line." I'm sure you can agree that almost anything going on in our
society has something to do with our profession, our lives, and the
practice of health education. I think our politics, our opinions,
and, yes, our feelings, should be the topic of any and all
discussions, without, of course, the personal attacks by others.
I belong to several discussion boards and find a basic difference in
the "talk" here on the HEDIR: spirit and energy. Not that our
discussions haven't been worthwhile and important, but I believe we
need to go beyond "Can anyone help me with course material."
Spirited discussions are an American tradition. Keep it up! It's
data... work it!
Michael
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#711
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:27:02 -0500
From: Kristin Hartsaw <KHartsaw@DUPAGEHEALTH.ORG>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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To everyone,
=20
My thought is that counterpoints and opposing views are more than welcome =
on this list serve, as long as we are all able to keep the tones of our =
emails professional. Several emails this morning have had less than =
professional tones. Didn't we just have this discussion a couple of =
months ago on this list serve?
=20
India Arie has a song on her new album called "Better People". This is by =
no means a direct quote, but some of the lyrics go a little something like =
this:
=20
If young people could talk to old people, we would all be better people
If black people would talke to white people...
If Republican people would talk to Democratic people, we would all be =
diplomatic people.
=20
=20
=20
Kristin Hartsaw, BS, CHES
Program Coordinator - Staff Development
Community Health Services
DuPage County Health Department
630-682-7979 ext. 7505
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#712
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:46:20 -0700
From: Patricia Cost <drsee2004@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Shiftworker's Diet
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One more question for you folks and I hope there are some RD's out there or
people who work with shiftworker's. :). I have been asked to put together a
"Miner's Diet." I am not a RD so I cannot create a real diet, but I have been
pulling together a folder of suggestions for those that work shiftwork. If there
is anyone out there that can make more suggestions on what shiftworkers (my
clients are miners) should eat to beat fatigue, obesity, ect. I would greatly
appreciate it. I look forward to hearing from you folks, thanks again. Patti
Cost, Ph.D., On-Site Health Advocate, RTEA.
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#713
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:57:24 -0400
From: Daniel Leviton <dleviton@UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Pamela, let me repeat: My motive in responding to Mark's good post was =
and is to underscore that mortality, morbidity, and suffering due to =
forms of HD are health issues that should be, but are rarely addressed =
by us. I am calling for a paradigm shift to a contemporary, vital health =
education/promotion mission and curriculum that has survival value. I =
call for legitimizing the topic in our organizations and schools, =
advocating, and educating our students accordingly.=20
Please re-read my post. It had nothing to do with appeasement. Rather, =
it was concerned with becoming intelligent "consumers" before buying =
into forms of HD (including war). Unfortunately, the "sellers" of HD are =
becoming increasingly brazen and sophisticated in their sale pitch. The =
Bush Administration, and the Jerry Falwells of the religious right) who =
lie and use fear to sell their products for a not so hidden agenda (see =
the Downing Street Memo, and a spate of recent books such as Woodward's =
State of Denial, Tom Ricks' Fiasco, etc.).=20
My job as a health professional is to educate consumers (students and =
the public at large) on what is valid information. The products are =
neither cars nor refrigerators but war without established cause (i.e., =
Iraq), deadly environmental assaults and degradation, increasing health =
and economic disparities (including poverty among children and =
minorities), etc.=20
Incidently, in my view the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and who =
would kill us need to be dealt with. I am not a pacifist. And I served =
in the army but not in combat.
D
Professor Daniel Leviton, ret.
Founder & Former Director, The Adult Health & Development Program
University of Maryland at College Park
www.ahdp.org
2007 Pelden Road
Adelphi, MD 20783
Phone and fax: 301-445-1546
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#714
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:40:11 -0400
From: kenneth zeno <kzeno@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Dear HEDIR Folks,
I am intrigued by the nature of the "discussion", or should I say some
diatribes espoused here. Let's try to related the Horrendous Deaths concept
to wellness education and move the discussion to "What is Effective Health
and Wellness Education in terms of a nation state and its policies?". How
can we increase the consciousness/sensitivities of a nation's people in
order to support policies that engender worldwide wellness. My concept of
wellness includes the six dimensions: mental, emotional, social,spiritual
and environmental as well as the physical each interdependent and
complementary.
Whatis the social health of a nation? How does it conduct its relations with
other nation states? What criteria would we select for assessing outstanding
social relationships at the national level extrapolating from the
microlevel. I believe "Effective Ccmmunication" is one criteria among a
variety. What is the character of that communication? To begin with does or
will that nation engage in dialogue with nations that may be hostile? If
not, is that a socially healthy nation? I've alwyas believed that triangle
conversations(non direct conversations but through someone else) are not
necessarily healthy. Is empathy, compassion, deep listening essenial
elements in effective communication when trying to understand another's
perspective. Social relatons between nations are healthier(I believe) when
each nation can transcend its own generally limited and self serving
perspective, at least momentarily, and seek to understand another's
perspective no matter how apparently absurb it initially appears to one
party. I am reminded of Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective people in
which he delineates one of the habits as "Seek First to Understand...." The
most recent example of this principle was the commendable behavior of the
Amish in relationship to the perpetrator of the death of their children.
They were not after revenge but displayed compassion for the family of the
perpetrator. That was possibly stupid or compassionate depending on what you
value. I believe the latter and commendable spiritually motivated behavior.
What constitutes a mentally healthy nation? What criteria might you use to
assess a nation states collective mental condition. Would it be critical
thinking? Would it be self awareness/self-reflection? Would it be congruence
between historically espoused values and collective human behavior-how we
consistently act as a nation. Would it be the nations ability to articulate
a consistently logical rationale for its policies and collective behavior
especially in relatonship to more than one nation? Does it even have a well
defined crieria for what constitues "consistently logical" rationale. There
is more to this interpersonal dimension at the national level(Social health)
than meets the eye....
What Behavior Change Theories are pertinent to the discussion and
perpetrators of Horrendous Deaths or Health Promotion/Risk Prevention that
can inform us to develop a way to emeliorate these conditions? How can we
educate people to assess behaviors at the national level(including policies)
that result in HD and shift their consciousness or perspective which takes
them outside themselves into understanding others and what motivates them
(including nation states)? What predisposes people to act in a certain way,
not just the surface explanation("Oh it's their religious fanaticism") when
it may be more deeply motivated(disempowered and economically deprived).
I have so many more thoughts on this but I've already gone on enough. I
think you get the point. Let's have a paradigm shift in us and engender it
in others. I hope I am on the right track regarding this discussion.
Most Appreciatively,
Ken Zeno
Ken Zeno, MA, MAT, CAGS, PhD Cand.
Director, Center for Health and Human Development
CHHD-Parents-as-Coaches (TM) Training Seminars (PACTS)
Delray Beach, FL 33445
Kzeno@adelphia.net
561-865-4593
Family, Life and Business Coach, The Duncan Center
15820 S. Military Trail
Delray Beach, FL 33484
561-496-4130
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#715
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:49:14 -0400
From: Daniel Leviton <dleviton@UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Fine suggestion. However, implementation is the name of the game. What you
call for is a civil and rational discourse. You imply fairness and good
will. Reality says to be prepared for the opposition to play dirty.
dan
Professor Daniel Leviton, ret.
Founder & Former Director, The Adult Health & Development Program
University of Maryland at College Park
www.ahdp.org
2007 Pelden Road
Adelphi, MD 20783
Phone and fax: 301-445-1546
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#716
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:59:31 -0400
From: Daniel Leviton <dleviton@UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Agree with the sentiments of the song. You long for good will, honesty, and
civility. So do I. In the song, the crucial word, is "If."
d
Professor Daniel Leviton, ret.
Founder & Former Director, The Adult Health & Development Program
University of Maryland at College Park
www.ahdp.org
2007 Pelden Road
Adelphi, MD 20783
Phone and fax: 301-445-1546
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#717
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:05:22 -0400
From: Daniel Leviton <dleviton@UMD.EDU>
Subject: video
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I accidently deleted the post sent today recommending a video that =
indicated ways of eliminating HD. Please resend. Sorry.
d
Professor Daniel Leviton, ret.
Founder & Former Director, The Adult Health & Development Program
University of Maryland at College Park
www.ahdp.org
2007 Pelden Road
Adelphi, MD 20783
Phone and fax: 301-445-1546
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#718
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:59:35 -0700
From: Mark Fulop <markfulop@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Iraq & Horrendous Death Visited again
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Hi all,
Boy, Guess I can't go out of the office for a couple of days and not check my
email. First, I did not post the link to the Lancet as a political rant. I
posted it because I am a public health professional who thinks that the concept
of social justice is the driving force of Public Health and the implications of
this article in the ongoing HEDIR discussion of Horrendous Death is important.
To that end, I, as always, appreciate the very thoughtful online and offline
comments made about the subject at hand.
BUT social justice is not just a philosophical discussion but it demands anger.
In my email I did not attack republicans or the president. I did not personalize
it, I never mentioned a political party, I did not demonize anyone or any
policy. Although I could have ranted with an ignorant eloquence that would have
rivaled Pamela's . However, as Penny posted a snippet of Paulo Friere's words I
thought I might continue with his words:
"When I speak about my homeland, I do not refer only to the beauties of Rio, of
the waterfalls Brazil is so rich in, popular music, the county’s art, its
science. I also refer to the hunger of millions, to degrading destitution, to
murdered children, to established disorder, to the ever-present
authoritarianism, and to multiplying violence…. All that also makes up my
homeland. And I cannot cross my arms, indifferent, before any of this. The
homeland of my dreams is my homeland rid of all such horrors. Overcoming these
horrors implies a political decision, popular mobilization, organization,
political intervention, and lucid, hopeful, coherent, tolerant leadership."
I quite frankly was almost as stunned by the Lancet study as I was by the images
of the planes cashing into the twin towers. Here we have a valid scientific
study suggesting that we have caused directly and indirectly the deaths of over
600,000 human beings in five years. This administration is suggesting we might
be in Iraq for another 10 years. If the current rate of death continues we will
likely contribute to the deaths of 1.8 million men, women and children. If that
is not a call for action, I do not know what is.
m
Mark Fulop, MA, MPH
PO Box 13094
Portland, OR 97213
503-282-1271
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