1-4-08

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I also have a strong belief that the CC system plays a vital role in

the American education system. But, I am bothered by a single

thought..."Why does the system have such a bad rap?" Clearly, from

the comments here on the HEDIR, it can be a fantastic experience, and

really set the groundwork for the future. So why then do I continue

to hear students refer to the local CC's as "High school with ash

trays", and its not uncommon for faculty in the University setting to

scoff at the thought of being on the faculty at a CC, like its not

really being a faculty member or something along those lines. Where

is the message getting distorted, and how do we work with our young

people (and their parents?) to see this as a viable experience?

Karl Larson, PhD

Assistant Professor of Health Education

800 W. College, Lund 212G

Gustavus Adolphus College

St. Peter, MN 56082

507-933-7591

klarson3@gustavus.edu

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#16

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:20:46 -0500

From: KDG Consulting <kdgconsulting@VERIZON.NET>

Subject: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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This is such an important issue. Community Colleges do have a bad rap in

certain places, but I think it's all a basic misunderstanding, which I hope

to help correct, especially in terms of health and health education

opportunities for students and professionals. I'm working on it.

But for right now, here's a CHES-related issue concerning community college

courses I'd love your feedback on - though it may be a matter settled simply

but checking with the US Dept. of Ed on the status of community college

courses...and I'll check there, too.

As a newly minted community college advocate, I am now campaigning to, among

other things, help people and organizations understand that unless a course

is designated a remedial course, any academic course is equivalent to at

least a first or second year course at a 4-year college. That's what we're

supposed to be offering, but I would think most community college faculty -

more and more have doctorates (all of us in Community Health at KCC do!)

certainly have the capability to teach 300 and 400 level courses and

graduate school!

As you know, one way to be eligible to sit for the CHES exam, in addition to

having a transcript from an accredited college that lists a health education

major, is to have 25 credits in health education that address the seven

areas of responsibility from an accredited college.

I believe that academic health education courses taken at a community

college for credit that show through their titles, course descriptions

and/or syllabi that they address any of the seven areas of health education

responsibilities should be acceptable toward eligibility for the CHES exam

as would a course from a 4-year college. Not to sound arrogant, but any

health education or community health course I teach at KCC has the same

goals, objectives, and standards as comparable courses I taught at ESU,

Rutgers, Hunter, Lehman, NYU, etc. Also, these courses transfer to 4-year

colleges - sometimes as a required course in a health ed or community health

program, sometimes as an elective. So the NYC higher ed system recognizes

the standard of these courses. My hope is that they will be accepted as

meeting part of the 25-credit CHES exam eligibility requirement - and, I

could argue - if a community college wanted to develop and offer a series of

health education courses that get approved by the state, should I expect

them to be acceptable towards exam eligibility?

This may be a hot topic or not. Any thoughts pro or con?

kdg

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#17

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:26:59 -0600

From: James Teufel <teufel@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: HEDIR: Community College Question

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Karl, I agree with your perception of community colleges stereotypical image

of being the 13th grade. Although community colleges do serve a major

function in the schooling system, by taking off my rose colored glasses,

community colleges include many students who do not necessarily value

education and may not have basic skills to act like the stereotypically

"good" student. Students in community college may be there for many reasons

other than education-- maybe employment was unavailable and they are killing

time; maybe students are their to stay on their parents health insurance;

maybe students are there to appease their parents and thereby stay living at

home; maybe students feel less valued due to the perception that community

colleges are lesser schools; maybe it is because it is true that many

students truly require remediation and therefore it is a relatively accurate

depiction for some, etc. As far as academic proficiency, I do not see much

of a difference between lower level 4 year colleges/universities and

community colleges, except that community colleges likely have a higher

percentage of commuters. The stereotypical University experience is one in

which students are immersed in University culture (e.g., living on campus),

which is missing from most community colleges. Community colleges also

entered the United States educational system after Universities thereby

potentially threatening the market share of 4 year schools. I would not

doubt that this threat likely spurred a negative reaction from 4 year

schools. One thing that is for sure in the United States is that if you go

against the typical, conventional, or norm, a group of social conservatives

who fear change due to their weak ego strength and empathetic skills will

degrade that which is different or perceived as lower status. Undoubtedly,

this explains some professorial downgrading of community colleges. The

bottom line with some of the professoriate is that some are status obsessed.

Universities are better status than community colleges. Other professors

may have an appreciation of research that is enabled better by Universities

than community colleges.

As far as changing perceptions of students and parents, I believe that

social change is more important than individual change. Since I am

influenced by the work of Thomas Szasz, Erich Fromm, Albert Ellis, Paul

Kurtz, and Dennis Raphael, I believe that we must focus on the weaknesses of

society than individuals. Essentially asking the question of how society is

sick or insane instead of defining individuals and sick or insane. The

United States is status fixated-- more is better for an individual

regardless of collective ramifications. The rich get richer and more

empowered; the poor get poorer and more disempowered. Those in community

colleges are perceived as lesser status in their life histories. It is not

shocking that this attitude would color their vision of community college.

People are raised to have status and not be empathetic humans. Objects are

more important than other human beings in the United States. In the United

States attending Harvard is like driving Mercedes, whereas attending a

community college is like driving a Kia; not attending high school is like

driving a Yugo, Chevy Chevette, or Ford Pinto. The United States suffers

from a severe case of Status Syndrome.

James

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#18

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:39:26 -0600

From: James Teufel <teufel@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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For me, I do not understand why a person would need any college credits to

sit for a certification exam. If people can pass the CHES exam without

formal collegiate training, why is this a problem? The CHES should

discriminate based on merit of test score, not on college experience.

Furthermore, if college experience did not discriminate between passing and

failing, then why include college experience as a criteria? The only reason

to include college experience would therefore be to sustain control issues,

snobbery, lack of grounding in the real world, committee myopia,

bureaucratic positions, the status quo, fear of change, the ivory tower

mentality, etc.

James

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#19

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:21:53 -0700

From: Les Chatelain <Les.Chatelain@HEALTH.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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www.health.utah.edu/healthed/

At the risk of sounding like my father, "I remember when...."

I am old enough to remember when we were fighting for legitimacy as a

profession. Most people did not know who health educators are and many

still do not know what we do. A key component of many professions,

including the "trades" (which are a very important part of community

college offerings), is academic standards. Most professions that require

certification or licensing have an academic requirement. This is

particularly true in the health fields. At the risk of sounding like one

of the many options listed below, I do feel that an academic grounding

is important in this field. Exams such as CHES confirm that you have the

minimum knowledge required to serve in the profession being measured.

That is why they are pass/fail. I hope our students graduate with more

than the minimum knowledge needed just as I hope my physician or my

plumber has more than the minimum knowledge to pass the test. I believe

the academic standard can be debated but I do believe as a profession,

we need more than a minimum score on a test to give us our identity.

For those still reading, thanks for hearing me out.

Les

Les Chatelain

Interim Department Chair

Department of Health Promotion and Education

University of Utah

(801) 581-4512 les.chatelain@health.utah.edu

www.uucep.org

------------------------------

#20

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:05:38 EST

From: Valerie Scotella <Staywell2002@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: HEDIR: Community College Question

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Agreed and also, some additional thoughts:

If people can achieve Bachelors (Masters, Ph. .DDS) degrees on line now,

many times in LESS THAN 1 YEAR, why do we continue to undervalue the CC

education experience at all anymore, if only in our minds? Last time I checked, it

was still a basic 2 year program, and that was only for an AA degree, not a

Ph.D. degree!

At least (most) CC students have to get up, get dressed and attend class.

There is more to school attendance than strict attendance enforcement; it is

also a great way to see if these students can actually survive in the working

world and helps to train them to be responsible adults, hopefully. And even

though many of us are work from home people, we still have to get up and

actually work every day!

Additionally, CC students can actively participate in class (usually) and

hence, gain even more information from the formal academic environment than

from flying solo in a basic online course. Other student's questions most often

inspire enhanced learning.

And let us never forget that a CC student actually has to show up FOR

HIM/HER SELF to take an exam (usually) unlike online typical course examination

practices. I would like to believe that the entire population of the planet

earth is as honest as I am but with my advancing years, I have found,

unfortunately, this is simply not the case.

This is not meant to rally support for or disapproval of online education

but rather to open the eyes of those who evaluate education and encourage them

to examine that the old school (pun intended) way of thinking about education

and see how much it needs to be reevaluated and revised to include all types

of non-traditional university study programs.

FYI: I am neither a CC or online graduate but have taught at high schools,

CS as well as at the University level, and have myself taken, for job related

purposes, online classes. I prefer online classes for updating education and

prefer actual class attendance if one is trying to gain totally new

information but this is my own preference, not a slight to anyone's education in any

way.

I personally believe that ALL higher education degree or certificate

programs should be held to the same rigorous accreditation standards we expect of on

campus degree or certificate programs. I have had to decline teaching

positions at certain online universities when I learned (for myself, they actually

skated around this issue), that these schools were not even accredited to

teach all of the programs and courses they offered degrees in other than in the

state they had branched out from!

The students paying these high on line degree fees were probably never made

aware of this inconsistency while attending their school of choice (there are

literally hundreds of choices on line for certain programs). And possibly,

as in the field of nursing programs and others which eventually require

licensure, they find they have completed a program which they cannot use to gain

licensure. you would think someone out there would make those schools ILLEGAL.

Learner BEWERE!

Always contact the state licensing board and education departments to check

on ANY school you plan on attending to ascertain whether or not it is

actually accredited to instruct in the field you plan to study in and in the state

you plan to work in.

HAPPY NEW YEAR, HEDIRITES!

In a message dated 1/4/2008 9:47:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

klarson3@GUSTAVUS.EDU writes:

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#21

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:09:40 -0600

From: "Mark J. Kittleson, PhD, FAAHB" <kittle@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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I am enjoying this conversation. I have a response to both Karl and

Karen...

Karl's response about image of community colleges:

When I was in high school (Minnesota) in the early 70s community colleges

(or junior colleges at that time) were just a high school with ash trays.

It was for students who couldn't make it into a regular college. There was

an image not only among college students, but a lot of people that this was

the 'price' you had to pay for screwing around in high school. Those images

are hard to break...I've had to come to grips with this as my own children

opt to go to a local community college for the first two years--primarily

because of cost (it's cheaper to pay out of pocket for my kids to go to a

community college than for me to pay for them to get 'half-price' tuition at

SIU). Cost is certainly a factor. I think another issue has been that the

image of community colleges have been so enhance, primarily because they're

the darlings of the higher education model in Illinois (and I believe in

many states).

Now to Karen...

The only problem I have with community college courses is the following: If

I went to a 4 year school and took a health course from a physical education

faculty/department, would that course count? I think it's important that

HEALTH EDUCATION faculty teach the health courses...but we all know that

here are many colleges that think health and physical education are one and

the same and thus an academically trained PE person ends up teaching some of

the health courses.

Now, relate this to community colleges...they may be health courses, but who

are they taught by? Most of the community colleges in Illinois go with the

HPE combination...I'm just concerned that somebody taking a health course

taught by a non-health educator may not have the type of course that we CHES

intended.

Mark J. Kittleson, PhD, FAAHB

Southern Illinois University

Professor, Health Education

www.kittle.siu.edu

www.hedir.org

Director of Graduate Studies

www.siu-salukis-hed.com

www.siurec.com

Health Education & Recreation

618-453-1841 Office

618-453-1829 FAX

SKYPE ID: mark.j.kittleson

618-912-4445 SKYPE Phone

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#22

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:23:23 -0600

From: Judy Drolet <jdrolet@SIU.EDU>

Subject: CC

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Karen - Happy 2008! Just noticed your message in Larry's reply. I'm among

the group who taught at that level. Some comments for you. If any seem

worthy of sharing in your article, please let me know what they are so I can

respond to your other question. : )

After receiving my Master's degree in HED at San Francisco State University,

I began teaching at City College of San Francisco in the "Interdepartmental

Studies" program. Team taught a Human Sexuality course (1975-1980); part

bio/part psych. I taught with a variety of co-instructors including my then

Dept. Chair who was my first "boss." Obviously, that was a challenging

experience as a newly hired instructor. These were the days when classes of

over 200 were not unusual for that class.

Shortly after, I was hired to teach the basic HED course more commonly known

as "101"on most campuses now. I taught 5 sections of the same course.

Although this position was a terrific initial opportunity in the profession

(all that was needed was a Master's degree), eventually doing the same thing

over and over (to the point of taking notes on my jokes so as not to confuse

which section heard what!) prompted my return to University of Oregon for my

PhD.

My last year in CA before leaving for the doctoral program, I had dual

employment at CCSF and Diablo Valley College (another CC) in the East Bay

Area. There I had a lot of variety and flexibility in content doing more

specialized courses in Sexuality, Drug Education, and so on. We also had a

creative dept. Chair who tried different time structures; and supported

alternative health methods making this a very progressive program.

The CC students enrolled in my classes (especially at CCSF) represented

tremendous diversity before that was an issue...just the nature of the Bay

Area. We had Middle Eastern, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese,

African-American, Hispanic/Latina of all types; the "white" face truly was

the exception. I learned to pronounce multi-syllabic names with ease! (a

skill that has come in handy ever since). My belief (as is mentioned often

in local CC p.r. around here is that CCs really represent the make-up of the

community. Ironically, a couple of years ago I went back trying to find

some information. I discovered that the CCSF "system" is now as huge as the

SF Bay Area; tremendous growth in enrollment. In fact, one of the CCs in the

South Bay has an enrollment of over 60,000!!!

I had great colleagues at CCSF. One, the HED Chair at the time, was Barbara

Combs who was author of the first "Personal Health"-style text. She provided

me the opportunity to write the first "Instructor's Manual" for that book

with Benjamin Cummings. I also was able to work with former faculty on

peer-reviewed publications. So the CC experiences were prophetic in building

a foundation for my later post-MS career. Given the heavier teaching loads,

I'm not certain this is "typical" since teaching seems to remain the

emphasis (vs. Contributing to scholarship) among the institutions that I

know about locally. I do find it ironic, however, that our local CC campus

chooses to call their instructors "assistant/assoc./etc" professor!

So that's it for now. Good news/bad news of sorts. Hope these comments might

be helpful. I'd appreciate knowing when your manuscript is done as I have an

interest in your subject, too. BTW: We have a course on CCs in our

Educational Administration dept. at SIU. Take care, judy

Judy C. Drolet, PhD, CHES, FASHA, FAAHE

Professor of Health Education

Southern Illinois University Carbondale

Mailcode 4632 Pulliam Hall 307

Carbondale, IL 62901-4632

Phone: (618) 453-2777 Voice mail (618) 453-1833

Fax: (618) 453-1829

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication is intended only for the use

of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain

information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure

under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are

notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of the

communication is strictly prohibited

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#23

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:37:31 -0500

From: Elbert D Glover <eglover1@UMD.EDU>

Subject: Re: HEDIR: Community College Question

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http://www.hhp.umd.edu/dpch/

FYI - Just read a university report that noted that community college

transfers perform more poorly academically than our regular 4-year

students, their time to graduate is longer, and their graduation rates

are lower than regular students. Don't know what that means but, if I

were to interpret the data liberally, it suggests that community college

students are not up to university experience. Obviously, there are

always exceptions e.g., Larry Green but, Larry is an exception

everywhere he goes.

glover

Elbert D. Glover, PhD, FASHA, FAAHB, FRIPH

Professor & Chair

University of Maryland College Park

School of Public Health

Department of Public & Community Health (PCH)

Director, Center for Health Behavior Research (CHBR)

2387 HHP Valley Drive

College Park MD 20742

301-405-2467 Voice

301-405-2029 Direct

301-314-9167 Fax (PCH)

301-314-5835 Fax (CHBR)

eglover1@umd.edu

------------------------------

#24

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:42:46 -0600

From: "Mark J. Kittleson, PhD, FAAHB" <kittle@SIU.EDU>

Subject: AAHE This Spring...

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<file:///C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Mark%20J.%20Kittleson\Application%20D

For Those Individuals Attending AAHE This Spring (in Fort Worth):

HPCAREER.net would like to invite people to a Texas Rangers/ Toronto Blue

Jays baseball game on Saturday, April 12 (7:05 pm). HPCAREER is subsidizing

the tickets.they're getting $60 tickets (all they are asking is for the

individual to pony up $15). However, they need a minimum of 20 people. If

you are interested in attending, please let Michaela know

(Michaela@hpcareer.net).

Mark J. Kittleson, PhD, FAAHB

Southern Illinois University

Professor, Health Education

www.kittle.siu.edu

ata\Microsoft\Signatures\www.kittle.siu.edu>

www.hedir.org

<file:///C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Mark%20J.%20Kittleson\Application%20D

ata\Microsoft\Signatures\www.hedir.org>

Director of Graduate Studies

www.siu-salukis-hed.com

www.siurec.com

Health Education & Recreation

618-453-1841 Office

618-453-1829 FAX

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618-912-4445 SKYPE Phone

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#25

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:46:02 -0500

From: KDG Consulting <kdgconsulting@VERIZON.NET>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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Not to be a pain, Mark, but do you really think this only happens in 2-year

colleges :-) I think that maybe that's what accreditation might be able to

help - making sure qualified teachers are teaching the courses...but it's my

experience - at many fine institutions that brilliant sociologists and

psychologists and other are teaching health education. In my CC only the

basic general ed Health and Wellness course is taught by a PE trained person

health. All our community health and health ed courses are taught by

carefully selected people trained in the field and holding either doctorate

or MPH degrees.

And yes, this is turning into a great dialogue.

kdg

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#26

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:23:37 -0500

From: "Michaela Conley, MA" <michaela@HPCAREER.NET>

Subject: Paid Ad: Career News Weekly: Happy 2008

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Please visit: http://www.hedir.org for details on any of these great

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#27

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:28:21 -0600

From: "Kelley, Mark" <rmk@OKSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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I do not perceive this issue of qualified instructors as being one that

is specific to the Community college environment. I know that at our

institution we, the program faculty, seem to be constantly involved in

trying to ensure that our classes are taught by qualified faculty. In at

least one case in recent years, administrators assigned a graduate

student (Master's level) to teach an upper division undergraduate class

that they had not ever taken at the undergraduate or graduate levels.

At OSU-Tulsa we work closely with the local community college to provide

the first two years of our program. The issues that I have observed in

that process seem to be related to the fact that most of the instructors

of our pre-requisite courses at the CC are adjunct part-time instructors

who have many distractions from what I would describe as a coherent

program with appropriate scope and sequence.

Mark

R. Mark Kelley, Ph.D.

Associate Professor, Health Promotion

Oklahoma State University - Tulsa

2439 Main Hall, 700 N Greenwood Ave

Tulsa OK 74106

918-594-8107

rmk@okstate.edu

------------------------------

#28

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 18:15:29 -0500

From: KDG Consulting <kdgconsulting@VERIZON.NET>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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Great, Les! So, do you believe that courses from CCs are or should be

strong enough to count toward a 25 credit eligibility requirement?

kdg

------------------------------

#29

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:10:09 -0700

From: Les Chatelain <Les.Chatelain@HEALTH.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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www.health.utah.edu/healthed/

I appreciate the pressure to commit to this discussion. It has been

great to follow the threads as they have progressed.

Yes, I believe any well designed and delivered classes should be

accepted. That is the easy part. More and more, particularly after this

discussion line, I favor accreditation of programs. That does not insure

quality but goes a lot farther than current quality control. I believe

programs should be accredited AND students should have to pass a minimum

competency exam. Now I am really going to step in it and say that the

minimum for "certification" should be a Bachelor degree from an

accredited program.

This is my opinion and it is worth what you paid for it. It has been

great to hear other's opinions also.

Les Chatelain

Interim Department Chair

Department of Health Promotion and Education

University of Utah

(801) 581-4512 les.chatelain@health.utah.edu

www.uucep.org

------------------------------

#30

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:40:03 -0800

From: Mark Fulop <markfulop@YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Reverse academic bigotry

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http://www.johnedwards.com/action/contribute/mygrassroots/?page_id=Mjg1NjM

I love this description: "High school with ash trays."

My view from the field, having interviewed and hired dozens of people over the years, is that I do not look for the pedigree schools in job candidates but I look for practical experience. From a community health education perspective, I need folks who can plan programs, write and speak well, who can organize communities, evaluate programs, and who understand a systems approach. In my opinion, the people that have the hardest time articulating those skills, based on countelss interviews I have conducted, are those who come from schools that emphasize research and rigor and intellectual theory. These graduates are also those who have most often left high school, entered a 4 yr univeristy and went straight into graduate school.

There is a difference between practical significance and statistical signifigance. Call it the reverse of academic bigotry but real life health education is messy and most often requires folks who have checkered pasts and have pieced together career/academic histories in various venues rather than being pristine graduates, untainted with the inferior education that community colleges offer.

===

Mark Fulop, MA, MPH

Portland, OR

"Change won, the status quo lost, and the fight is on to see if we're going to have the kind of change we need to save the middle-class."

Read more about why I supoport John Edwards:

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#31

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:24:54 -0600

From: "teufel@siu.edu" <teufel@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Reverse academic bigotry

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Again, I agree with you Mark. I have taken to thinking about

some models of health promotion as the Dolores Umbridge model.

People who have little understanding or care for the real world

or people, but simply want control and bending the world to their

interests. I believe that this model is applied more by those

who have not had to experience the diversity of the world.

Through diverse experience, one develops a more grounded view.

Some people believe that they have "slummed" it when they do a

week or two of charity work or maybe they go on a study abroad

program for a semester. Being sheltered in the ivory tower does

not necessarily make a good health educator. I have worked with

people from the best institutions in the nation; some are good

and some are lucky that academia exists because they would not

thrive in the world otherwise. Health educators who are good

develop broad as well as specified skills. Part of that skill is

to develop a deep understanding of the "people," and academia has

up until now been disinterested in teaching about human beings.

Instead academia trains technocrats.

James

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#32

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:44:42 -0600

From: "teufel@siu.edu" <teufel@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Community College - Bad Rap Response and CHES Question

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First, I have two questions:

Who does the idea of CHES serve or benefit? Who do community

colleges serve and benefit?

Regarding the need, not only a recommendation, for people to have

formal health education training to teach health education

classes is too strict a requirement. Would we not allow Daniel

Kahneman teach economics? Would we not allow Jean Piaget teach

child development? Would we not let Noam Chomsky teach political

science?

This discussion has also made me think of one of the principles

in research. Do people know the results before the research has

been conducted? The result that I knew before the discussion was

that the status quo would be maintained. There have been many

great ideas in the world. However, ideas are only as good as

what they do for people (application is more important to people

than theory).

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#33

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:00:52 EST

From: Valerie Scotella <Staywell2002@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: HEDIR: Community College Question

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Did the thought ever occur to anyone else that perhaps students attend CC

for the first 2 years because the ever rising cost of a college education can

be substantially reduced if the basic 'weeder' courses are taken at a CC?

Then too, perhaps these students who go to a CC for these basic courses, can

work while attending CC and help to pay for their eventual 4 year degree? Isn't

is plausible that there are in fact a huge number of students whose grades

and ACT scores qualify them for honors programs in 4 year universities but

perhaps their parents income level is such that Harvard, or even the local state

University, may be out of reach for some of these students?

Since this country has changed the way scholarships are awarded, many of

these students may have family income levels above the "FREE SCHOOL" bar but no

actual college savings set aside and yet, they do not qualify for any

scholarships or grants?

Does anyone know a person who took more than 4 years to obtain a BS degree

TRULY due to personal circumstances, health, finances, job issues? Sometimes,

life gets in the way of our best laid plans.

And then, how about this? I actually knew a man who took 6 years to graduate

from Law School (he was going FT!) just so he could remain a student

completely supported by daddy's money (talk about killing time!) and not have to

join the working world.

I graduated from a very fine 4 year university (though, back in my day, they

did not have dorms there). Hence, I did not experience the DORM life as

referred to below. Am I any less intelligent because I did not drink every night

in my dorm but rather, went to work full time after a full day of classes and

graduated summa cum laude, without ever having one beer?

I think not.

I believe there are as many different reasons students choose CCs as there

are students in this world. I also think we should reevaluate our college

costs to see if there is a way to allow for more learning to occur at a lower

cost so that credit hour for credit hour, university charges are more in linen

line with CC tuition.

Cost is a HUGE factor!

Does anyone else find it interesting that it only costs German citizens

$1000 per semester to attend "UNIVERSITY" and they are actually completing the

equivalent of a Masters degree when they finish schooling? While their current

scholastic levels of achievement are changing, this has been the way it was

for many years. I am simply amazed at how Americans who claim they value

education above all else, don't find the obvious cost of college a major

decision factor in why many students choosing CC over a University for the first 2

years. if we really cared, we'd put our money where our mouth is and make

college affordable to all.

Once you level the playing field, then you can pick apart the players.

In the meantime, thanks for your attention.

V. Scotella, MPH

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#34

Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 07:36:47 +0200

From: Ansa Ojanlatva <ansoja@UTU.FI>

Subject: Re: HEDIR: Community College Question

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