Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:01:05 -0500

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#117

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:18:49 -0600

From: Martha Cropper <mcropper@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: HEDIR-L Digest - 10 Jan 2008 to 11 Jan 2008 (#2008-12)

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James,

Thank you for a thought provoking discussion on health and religion. I agree with Mark that it is good to push the "discussions further and further towards clarity." In that spirit I would like to offer some information and perspectives regarding your comments. First, regarding your assertions that the founding fathers of our country were deists rather than theists. Not being a philosopher or theologian, I had to look up those two terms to understand their differences. Here is what I found:

de.ism n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the

universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

the.ism -noun The belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the

universe, without rejection of revelation.

It seems the difference in the two terms is not whether our founding fathers believed in a God who created a universe, but whether they believed that God was actively involved in their activities and had any control or influence over their actions in forming our government. Here is what some of the signers of the Declaration of Independence said regarding that question.

Benjamin Franklin--Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."

(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp.

450-452, June 28, 1787.)

John Adams--Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States "[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol.

IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

"[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

Samuel Adams--Signer of the Declaration of Independence "[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."

(Source: William V. Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams

(Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1865), Vol. I, p. 22, quoting from a political essay by Samuel Adams published in The Public Advertiser, 1749.)

Fisher Ames--Framer of the First Amendment "Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

Charles Carroll of Carrollton--Signer of the Declaration of Independence "Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry

(Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

Thomas Jefferson--Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind."

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)

"I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers."

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)

These are just a few examples from the writings of the founding fathers that their faith--primarily Judeo-Christian--was their basis of the Constitution.

And, thankfully, they were insightful enough to insure the freedom of religion, not the freedom from religion.

Finally, your examples of the horrors in the name of religion are surely examples that are not the church's finest hour. I agree with you they stand as testimonies to the depravity of which the human heart is capable.

However, my response to those atrocities is from a different paradigm than you propose. To me, those atrocities support the need for mankind's spiritual renewal which can best be seen in the lives of Mother Theresa and the Rev. Martin Luther King, to name just two. These two individuals sacrificed their lives because their faith showed them injustices they could affect. There are soup kitchens in Carbondale, food pantries in Murphysboro and Cobden, free medical clinics in Marion and Carbondale, after school tutoring, etc. that are all examples of people living out their religious beliefs in quiet unassuming ways to better their communities and their world. I simply choose to see the part of the religious glass that is half full, because I see positive examples of faith in action all around.

Religion and democracy have one thing in common in my paradigm. They are far from perfect, but they beat whatever else is in second place.

I do not intend to be argumentative. I simply hope my comments have provided food for thought that brings some clarity and balance to the discussion. I am not surprised that now that we are beginning to study the relationship between health and religion, the data are supporting a positive correlation.

That positive effect is not because of organized religion, but because of the personal convictions of individuals as they live out their faith, mostly in quiet, unassuming ways.

Sincerely,

Martha Cropper

Community Life Concepts, Inc.

473 West Harrison Road

Murphysboro, Illinois 62966

618-201-5688

mcropper@siu.edu

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#118

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:57:22 -0500

From: "jvisker@siu.edu" <jvisker@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: religion and public health

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Hello HEDIRites,

I’ll be the first to admit that lately I have been exercising my delete button after seeing so many posts on the HEDIR (simply because I don’t have time to read them all and not because I don't appreciate a good debate or discussion) but this particular issue caught my attention. With that said, I would like to respond to James’ comments on Religion and Public Health.

As far as my comments are concerned, in the words of Will Farrell from the hit movie Anchorman, "if you like it you can take it and if not, send it right back"… or simply ignore it, I wont be offended either way.

James lays out some pretty interesting arguments against religion in general. However, I think there are some key points that need clarifying and additional thought. James states that we cannot solely focus on the positive aspects of religion and that religion has been used as a basis for genocide, war, etc. I argue that the same (although not in all instances) can be said for science. Science, public health, and medicine certainly have their fair share of dark points in history. Some of the things that have been done in the name of "science" include: The Tuskegee Study (which some argue was also an expression of racism); Joseph Mengele’s human experiments in Nazi Germany; Operation Whitecoat (although less criticized); The Willowbrook Hepatitis experiments; the list goes on and on.

Does this mean that we should abandon science/public health because of questionable practices or perhaps a checkered background? Absolutely not! The point I am trying to make here is that many people fail to see the line between "science" and the things that have been and are currently being done in the name of "science" as well as true religion/religious beliefs and the things that are done in the name of "religion".

Take a look at the incident involving David Koresh in Waco, Texas or even the Ku Klux Klan. In both of these incidents (one involving child molestation/possible stockpiling of illegal weapons and another involving a racist organization) scripture has been perverted to allow it’s use as a basis for things that are truly not biblical (speaking only for the Bible, since that is the only scripture for which I am familiar). Thus, we cannot use incidents like these or (as stated by James), witch hunts, slavery, or genocide (referring to the Holocaust) to make judgements about a religion as a whole. Again only speaking for Christianity, if one truly wants to understand the Bible and the faith, they need to study it as if it were any other subject (and not simply pulling random bits of scripture or stories). This includes studying the Word as if it were any other text book, seeking advice/guidance from experts (biblical scholars), spending time with believers, and participating in events (i.e.

going to Church/Temple, study time, etc).

With that said, I think I need some clarification as to where exactly the Bible promotes things like Genocide, seeing women as a second class citizen or how, "The 10 Commandments promote intolerance, unquestioning subservience, sexism, humanocentrism, insecurity, threat, and jealousy" (James Teufel).

As a practicing Southern Baptist, I can say first hand that if I ever even thought of women as a second class citizen, not only would I not be following scripture, but my wife (whom I love, adore, and respect) would not even give me the luxury of a 5 second head start before she grabbed my shotgun and I became a human running target!! Many people take for example, Ephesians

5:22 which calls for women to "submit", out of context, assuming it calls for blind obedience to a husband or perhaps a woman giving up rights. However, if you read a little further, Paul (the author of Ephesians) calls for a duel submission between husbands and wives where husbands are to devote themselves to their wife’s good/wellbeing. Thus, my wife blindly submitting to me and my every word would not be in her best interest or good for her wellbeing and thus is not biblical. Besides that, she would tell me to stick it where the sun don’t shine, if I ever even suggested such a thing! Also, it is my duty as a husband to respect her thoughts and opinions.

Lastly, in all my time in Church, Sunday school, etc, I have never heard, read, or seen homophobia, defined as a "non-clinical term used to describe the fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals"(www.wikipedia.org) , practiced or preached. In my opinion, and through my own understanding of scripture, we (believers) are not to openly discriminate or fear anyone, as we are children of God.

Okay, I could go on and on but I think my point has been made.

Before we can make snap statements/judgements about science, religion, or any topic of that matter, we need to make sure we not only fully understand what we are talking about, but also not use certain incidents/ways of thinking/etc as a basis for making assumptions about an entire religion/person/group/etc.

Wow, there went my whole Saturday morning. Hope this was helpful and I promise not to go on such a tangent EVER again (unless invited to)!

Peace!!

Joe Visker

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#119

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:58:28 -0600

From: "Nelson Atehortua (Student)" <nelson.atehortua@WKU.EDU>

Subject: I am staying also!

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I am staying also in the Hedir. Some time ago I had a couple uncomfortable experiences in this forum, but I decided to stay, to be able to participate, and to voice my opinions. Freedom of speech is the best thing we may have, even if it implies to have sometimes bitter criticisms of what we think or what we are.

Best,

Nelson A. Atehortua, MD. MPH

Graduate Diversity Fellow

Doctoral Student Fellow of the Mexican-American and US Latino Research Center (MARLC) Department of Health and Kinesiology Texas A&M University

"…we have to think about where we came from, who we are, and where we want to go. I hope that someday we have this thirst for greatness that raises nations from nowhere toward the sun. When we make an unconditional defense of life and liberty of our people, that is, when we are less individualistic and less sympathetic, less indifferent and more committed, less intolerant and more compassionate; that day, we will be the great nation that all of us would like to be…"

Ingrid Betancourt, 2007. In a letter to her mother.

She wrote a letter to her mother from an unknown place while kidnapped.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy".

Martin Luther King Jr. Strength to Love, 1963.

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