Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:33:00 -0800

From: Donna Stauber <ddoctordonna@YAHOO.COM>

Subject: VP- 11 Jan 2008 to 12 Jan 2008 (#2008-13)

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Dear HEDIR's,

I have been an observer of the HEDIR and have participated occasionally in the past but I think it is time for participants and sideline observers to evalute their stand and to wake up. I was an educator at the university for several years, a VP of a health care system for several more, VP of the largest women's fitness franchise for several years, and have now left all of that to start my own business helping people to reach their full potential in their business and professional life.

I have found through the years that many of the people that have only been in academia for years are living in a world with blinders on and I encourage you to think and live out of your safe, easy, environment for the sake of our profession as health educators. One of the problems and reason we are not respected and employed at a level of salary that we deserve is because we refuse to think out of the box and live in a bubble. I encourage you to take off your blinders and view the world as it is. I am tired of reading boring, unimportant, unproductive issues, that seem more like a soap opera than people who are leaders in a caring world. You have become old, boring, and uncaring because you focus on yourselves more than you do those who need us in those troubled world.

Donna Stauber, Ph.D., CHES

Rebuats, Inc.

I will be removing myself from this listserve today.

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#121

Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:09:41 -0800

From: Donna Stauber <ddoctordonna@YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: HEDIR-L Digest - 11 Jan 2008 to 12 Jan 2008 (#2008-13)

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Nelson, glad you are speaking up and staying in. Many need to hear your out of the box philosophy. Our future health educators need some futuristic thinking.

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#122

Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:34:48 -0600

From: "teufel@siu.edu" <teufel@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: religion and public health

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Hello,

This message is a response to Martha and Joe. I agree with Joe

that we must know what we are talking about, but I do not

apologize for atrocities as easily. I am pulling passages from

versions of the Bible that have not yet been sanitized. Biblical

scholars have long debated if the public should receive one

version of the Bible and scholars receive another. This debate

is due to the fear of the repercussions of people reading the

true words of the Bible. With regard to Martha’s quotes, I have

added additional quotes headed "Founding Fathers" at the end of

this email, though there are many more quotes supporting that the

Founding Fathers’ distrusted the church, supernatural thought,

blind-faith, and religion driving government. I have also added

a section titled "Religion and Democracy." With regard to Joe’s

comments I have primarily responded under the headings of

"Biblical Perversion and Apologists," "Nazi Germany,"

"Patriarchy," "Genocide and Women as Property," "Hate," and

"Killing in the Name of Theism." Thomas Jefferson and Thomas

Paine had particular reservations with the supernatural. Deists

and atheists perceived no supernatural influence in their natural

world (blind watchmaker). Could we imagine any modern politician

the level of Thomas Jefferson writing something like the

Jefferson Bible? If a high level political figure wrote anything

like the Jefferson Bible today, that person would be socially

executed by the media in the name of nationalism, false history,

and patriotism. I also spoke of the social gospel as well as

other gospels in prior emails so I will not repeat myself.

On a related topic regarding prayer beginning Congress, I oppose

this practice. However, contemporary campaigns almost always

include the "God issue," and no one is functionally permitted to

question the "God claims." Religion should not be an issue in

government campaigns. The Muslim, Mormon, Atheist, Agnostic,

Catholic, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jewish, etc. would feel a

greater sense of inclusion, if Protestantism or Evangelicalism

was not forced upon them and the government. Of the many special

interests, the Founding Fathers chose religion to be the one

special interest to remove from governmental authority. The

Founding Fathers had a greater appreciation of the dangers of

linking religion and government than many people today.

Biblical Perversion and Apologists

The position of most apologists (like Josh McDowell) shows the

weakness of religious faith-- attributional bias. When things

are good, it is because of religion; when things are bad, it is

primarily because of the disposition of the religious individual.

is due to the Bible? Apologists blame the weakness of the Bible

and religion on people, not the Bible or religion itself.

Apologists also claim that some parts of the Bible should be

revised or neglected because certain events in the Bible are

cultural artifacts. However, if some of the Bible is admittedly

nothing more than a cultural artifact, what prevents the Bible

from being nothing more than a cultural artifact as a whole?

Additionally, is the Bible the word of God or the word of humans

(or what the Bible would say man)? The fence sitting position of

"it is both," does not work well. We know it is the production

of humans (evidence), but there is no evidence that the Bible was

produced the Bible telling people that it was the word of God or

inspired by God. However, if one does take the unsupported

position that the Bible "is" the word of God, then one must

accept the atrocities of the Bible as God’s word. God’s word

should be perfect, not open to interpretation or alteration. The

Bible is what it is. Therefore, Joe’s comments that one should

treat the Bible as any other book would certainly be an act of

human pride. As we know, pride is not a good thing in the Bible

(e.g., Satan). As will be shown in the following sections of

this response, the apologists pervert the Bible as much as those

who are deemed to have "evil" dispositions. Research shows that

22% to 34% of Christians have never read the Bible. Most

adolescent Christians (about 80%) are biblically illiterate at

anything above the most rudimentary understanding of the Bible.

These statistics are a problem. Most Christians have little to

no idea of what the Bible says; though they do attend Church and

permit someone else to tell them what it means. This pattern is

an obvious problem (sloth and ignorance). However, one should

not worry because the Bible admits its human constructions and

adaptability.

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is inspired by God and

profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for

training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete,

equipped for every good work."

Nazi Germany

The anti-semitism of Nazi Germany and Europe was supported by

trying to rewrite the Bible to hide this fact. Hebrews were

described in animalistic terms in the Bible (Genesis 27:11). The

Bible also opposed "intermarriage" (see Deuteronomy 22:3-6).

Ethnic cleansing is also supported by the Bible (Deuteronomy 32:43).

Patriarchy

The Bible does support a patriarchy. Was Jesus male? Yes. Was

original sin due to the actions of a man? No, but by the actions

of a woman. Depending on where one looks in the Bible, women

were created either after man or after both man and animals. In

1 Timothy 2:12, it is stated that "I do not permit a woman to

teach or to have authority over man; she must be silent." The

tenth commandment focuses on men: Thou shalt not covet thy

neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor

his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor

any thing that is thy neighbor’s. One must understand that women

were property at the time of Biblical origins and were portrayed

as property in the Bible. The Lord is also traditionally

positioned as Father (male).

Social Exclusion and Hate

The bible also supports social exclusion, jealousy, and hatred.

For example the Protestant first, second, and third commandments:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make

unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is

in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in

the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to

them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God,

visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the

third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing

mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my

commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God

in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his

name in vain. Jesus also supported hate (Luke 14): Whoever comes

to me and does not hate father and mother, wife, and children,

brothers and sisters, yes, and, even life itself, cannot be my

disciple."

Genocide and Women as Property and Slavery

Joe’s response regarding Noah, God, and genocide does not

disprove genocide but evinces "genocides." Joe is correct that

the Noah story is an even more atrocious act than I originally

positioned-- multiple simultaneous genocides. Joe did position

that God apologized and would not do it again (which down played

the atrocity of this proposed incident of Noah); that is of

course until the Rapture. One also finds examples of genocide in

other portions of the Bible. For example, Joshua 11:11-12

states, "And they put the sword all who were in it, utterly

destroying them; there was no one left who breathed, and he

burned Hazor with fire. And all the town of those kings, and all

their kings, Joshua took, and struck them with the edge of the

sword, utterly destroying them, as Moses the servant of the Lord

had commanded." Here is another quote from Deuteronomy 20:10-15:

When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms

of peace. If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to

you, then all the people in it shall serve you at forced labor.

If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against

you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives

it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword.

You, may, however, take as your booty the women, the children,

livestock, and everything else in town, all its spoil. You may

enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has

given you. Thus you shall treat all the towns that are very far

from you, which are not towns of the nations here."

The bible supports genocide, and people should not pervert the

word of the Bible.

Homosexuality and the Bible

The Bible also positions hate with regard to sexuality. To me,

this position is not a good example of morality. For example:

Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with

a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those

who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable

act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltness is

upon them."

1 Corrinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous

shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither

fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor

homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor

revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading

passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that

which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned

the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire

toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and

receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer,

God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which

are not proper."

Killing in the Name of Theism

There has been more bloodshed spilled over religion by religious

people than any other reason. I do not know of a history that

supports otherwise. People have killed and continue to kill over

religion (e.g., 9/11, Iraq, Holocaust, Iran-Iraq, Crusades,

Ireland, etc.). The one example typically used to portray

atheists as murderers is Stalin. Stalin did not kill in the name

of atheism. He killed in the name of governmental change. In

fact, the Russian Orthodox faith increased in funding under

Stalin.

Religion and Democracy

Fukuyama certainly agrees. However, I believe the issue is how

democracy is operationalized in society. Certainly, the American

democracy needs more reform as it has been transformed across time.

this question is supported except through normative belief. It

is certainly not supported by the preponderance of evidence or

reason, especially with regard to health. The issue of religion

serving the poor: Religion serves the poor more often because

people are more likely to be religious if they are poor. Poverty

has always been a fertile recruiting ground for religion. The

secular system of public health, however, certainly outlays more

funding than religious organizations. Religion has harmed health

by preventing progress more than helped. The scant support of

the positive impact of religion on health (e.g., by Koenig) does

not outweigh the negatives (preponderance of the evidence).

Koenig also admits that much of the positive effect of religion

on health is due to social support and purpose in life. I would

point out, however, that research of the Mosaic Project shows

that atheists are more distrusted and "un-American" than other

marginalized groups such as racial/ethnic minorities or people

who are homosexual. This effect of marginalization occurs more

often with more religious people and sects. The religious

marginalize those who are different and make it more difficult

for them to organize to support one another. Additionally, the

majority (Christians) discredits the purpose in life of the

"other" (atheists, homosexuals, etc.); tyranny of the majority.

People who are marginalized must learn more about the majority’s

opinion than the majority knows. The marginalized must also know

more about themselves and their position than those in the

majority in order to overcome struggle and marginalization. In

the majority, people have the luxury of being complacent, whereas

people on the margins are not afforded this luxury, if they would

like to thrive.

The examples given by Joe regarding the atrocities of science, I

have already described that the Nazi atrocities were due to

religious bigotry driving science. The Nazis transformed science

to support their bigotry, not the other way around. Regarding

the Tuskegee Study, religion was used to dehumanize

African-American populations. The dehumanization in the Tuskegee

study was a manifestation of Biblically driven bigotry and

slavery. Science was used as a tool, not as a moral

justification. I do not know enough about the Willowbrook Study,

to write intelligently. I would speculate that Christians pushed

the study and not an atheist, though I would love to be proven

incorrect. However, even if the Tuskegee Study and the

speaking of hundreds of people. With regard to religion,

atrocities amount to the deaths of millions. Does the benefit of

religion outweigh science? No. Is there a secular moral system

that has not committed atrocities of religion? Yes, humanism.

Agnostic humanism is a more humble and functional morality in the

contemporary world than any of the major religions.

Founding Fathers

I have examined all the known superstitions of the World, and I

do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one

redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and

mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since

the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured,

fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this

coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half

hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world . . .

. The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an

engine for enslaving mankind . . . to filch wealth and power to

themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Thomas Jefferson

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty

gods, or no God.

Thomas Jefferson

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if

there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than

that of blind-folded fear.

Thomas Jefferson

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by

the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by

the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own

mind is my own church.

Thomas Paine

It has often been said that anything may be proved from the

Bible; but before anything can be admitted as proved by the

Bible, the Bible itself must be proved to be true; for if the

Bible be not true, or the truth of it be doubtful, it ceases to

have authority, and cannot be admitted as proof of anything.

Thomas Paine

My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

Thomas Paine

Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is

always the strongly marked feature of all religions established

by law.

Thomas Paine

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those

which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear

to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be

deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal

policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have

reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should

never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as

to endanger the peace of society.

George Washington

. . . the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little

political direction.

George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the

Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ

If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or

Europe; they may be Mahometans [Muslims, followers of the Prophet

Mohammed], Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists....

George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked

what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon

. . . I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous

than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors

of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.

George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789

All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of

citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if

it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another

enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For

happily the government of the United States, which gives to

bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only

that they who live under its protection should demean [conduct]

themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their

effectual support.

George Washington

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and

when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to

support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of

the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

Benjamin Franklin

James

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